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Rebuttal to Sam Shamoun's article

A Series of Answers to Common Questions

Question:


    Jesus himself admitted that the Father is the only true God. Since Trinitarians believe that the Father and the Son are distinct Persons, that they are not the same Person, wouldn’t this prove that Jesus denied that he was God?

By Sami Zaatari

 

 

 

 

 

http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_john17_3.htm

 

He Wrote

The person who raises this question is obviously assuming Unitarianism, that there is only one Person who is God (namely the Father), and then imposes this assumption onto the reading of the text. The only thing one has to do in order to understand Jesus’ point here is to simply read the entire context:

    "After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: ‘Father, the time has come. Glorify YOUR SON, that YOUR SON may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people THAT HE MIGHT GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN … For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come TO ME through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name - the name you gave me - so that they may be one as we are one … My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be IN US so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I IN THEM and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me BECAUSE YOU LOVED ME BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them AND THAT I MYSELF MAY BE IN THEM.’" John 17:1-5, 8, 10-11, 20-26

We note from the foregoing that:

   1. Jesus is God’s Son.

   2. Jesus gives eternal life to all that God gives him, which is a claim to being absolute Deity since only God can give eternal life.

   3. Jesus existed in glory with the Father even before the world was created.

   4. Jesus demands to be glorified by God, something which no mere creature could ever demand.

   5. Jesus states that everything that the Father has belongs to him, which makes him the heir of everything that exists.

   6. Jesus indwells all the believers, an indication that Christ is omnipresent and therefore God since God alone is omnipresent.

   7. Jesus is the object of the Father’s love even before the creation of the world.

 

 

My Response

John 17 is a chapter I like a lot, the reason I like this chapter a lot is because it proves that Jesus is not God!

Let me post some of the chapter again which does indeed prove this:  

Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

So as we can see, Jesus says that it is the Father who has GIVEN him the power. What does that mean? That means Jesus has no power on his own and without the true God, Jesus cannot do anything.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

So note, even better now, Jesus now says that ALL things have been GIVEN to him by the Father. This means that everything Jesus said and did was from the Father. The miracles he did were not on his own, such us healing the blind, curing the sick, casting out demons etc. God had given him this power to be able to perform such great miracles; Jesus did not do this on his own. Hence this all proves that Jesus is NOT GOD.

Also note, Jesus says that now they have believed that thou has sent me, so basically they believe in the True God, because that was Jesus' mission, to make his people realize and worship the true God, and that was the mission of the prophet Jesus. God had helped Jesus in doing this mission by granting him everything.

So now once we read these important parts, everything else makes sense.

 

Shamoun said that:

2. Jesus gives eternal life to all that God gives him, which is a claim to being absolute Deity since only God can give eternal life.

So basically Shamoun's argument is that Jesus gave eternal life, and that is something that only God does.

Well see, that argument would work, but there is a slight problem. As I just showed, Jesus himself said that ALL THINGS that he has are GIVEN to him from the Father. So if Jesus did indeed grant his disciples eternal life then this only means that God the Father bestowed this great power on Jesus, hence what it really means is that the Father is really doing it, not Jesus. Had Jesus given this eternal life on HIS OWN, then that would be a different case, the fact that the Father gave him such power shows that it isn’t something too special, nor does it make Jesus divine. Had Jesus done it on his own, then Shamoun would have a case. The fact is that Jesus did not do it on his own, but the Father gave him this power, hence nothing divine about it.

 

Shamoun also states:

. Jesus existed in glory with the Father even before the world was created.


Bassam
Zawadi has a response to this:


John 17:5

5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

This shows that Jesus was there at the beginning of time with that glory, he came to earth and set aside that glory and now wants the Father to send him that glory back again.

What does glory mean? It means honor, praise, reputation. The Father already knew and had preordained that Jesus Christ is going to come. Therefore Jesus’ honor and glory was there with God already because God already knew about him. The coming of the Messiah has been talked about for thousands of years before Jesus came. He had glory then, even though he wasn’t born yet. Because he already had a reputation and god has love for him already. Look at this verse….

John 17:24

"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

John 8:54

Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

Ephesians 1:4

4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love


END QUOTE


Every prophet has glory with God before the world began, since he already knew about them and so on. So this is not something special, or unique with Jesus, nor does it make him divine.

 

Shamoun also says:

4. Jesus demands to be glorified by God, something which no mere creature could ever demand


Shamoun
is reffering to these passages:


. Glorify YOUR SON, that YOUR SON may glorify you.

AND

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN

Basically Shamoun is saying Jesus demanded God to glorify Jesus. Well I do not believe Jesus was demanding God, reason being is because how can Jesus demand something from the Father when Jesus himself says that everything he speaks is from the Father. Did the Father tell Jesus that I demand you to demand me to glorify you?

Now why would Jesus ask God to glorify him? Simple, note what Jesus says:

Glorify YOUR SON, that YOUR SON may glorify you.

Jesus is asking to be glorified so then he can glorify God, because without God honoring you, helping you etc, then how will you be able to make people come to God? You need God's glorification to be able to do the job, especially if you are a prophet. Jesus needs God's glorification and once he has that, he will be able to glorify God and make people come to him.



Shamoun says:

5. Jesus states that everything that the Father has belongs to him, which makes him the heir of everything that exists.

Shamoun is referring to these verses:

All I have is yours, and all you have is mine.

Simple, the reason Jesus said that all he has is the Fathers things is because the Father gave him those things! If someone gives you everything then off course your going to say that all you have is their things, because that person gave it to you and you have nothing else. That is what Jesus meant, everything he had was from the Father, so therefore all he had was the Fathers things, and all the Father had was Jesus' things since those things really belonged to the Father and he gave them to Jesus, hence in reality Jesus has nothing of his own!

 

 

He Wrote

The same Scriptures teach that Jesus is the only sovereign Master and Lord:

    "For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 1:4



My Response

If this is true, then there is a slight problem, because the verse says that Jesus is their ONLY master and Lord, what does that mean? That means there is no other Lord and master, meaning the Father nor Holy spirit are masters or Lords and therefore we should not worship them.




He Wrote

Now does this mean that the Father is not God, sovereign Master, Lord, and the Creator of the heavens and the earth? The answer is obvious. The Father, according to the Holy Bible, is just as much God, Master, Lord, and just as responsible for creating and sustaining the universe as the Son is. In a similar way, the Son glorifying his Father as the only true God doesn’t mean that Christ was denying that he is full Deity as well.




My Response

Yes, it does mean that the Father is not the Lord nor Master. We do not need an explanation from anybody to try and tell it does not mean that, all we have to do is quote the verse:

"For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 1:4

What does ONLY mean? It means no one else, it means they have no other master and lord but Jesus, if the Father is their master then this means that Jesus is not the ONLY master and therefore Jude is wrong.



He Wrote

In fact, a careful reading of John 17:3 helps to further confirm that Jesus wasn’t denying his absolute Deity:

    "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, AND (kai) Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

The Lord Jesus, by using the Greek conjunction kai in his prayer, makes himself the necessary object of the knowledge that leads to eternal life. In other words, Jesus basically made himself a coequal partner with God by claiming that eternal life is dependent on knowing both the Father and the Son.



My Response

Not really, all Jesus is saying is that they know about the true God, and Jesus Christ whom God has sent. In other words this is another way of saying the shahada, there is no God but Allah and Jesus is his messenger.

Secondly, how can Jesus claim to be co-equal with God when Jesus says that ALL things has been given to him by God! How is that being co-equal in anything.

Shamoun then posts some commentary to show that they believed it to. Well The text is simple, all it says is that now they know the true God and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent. I do not see anything divine there, all it is is a confirmation of Jesus being a messenger and prophet of God. This is the same with all other prophet, not only Jesus.

Shamoun then quotes a few passages to prove that Jesus is God, no need to post that since most of it has been addressed in many of these articles:

http://answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltosamshamoun5_1.htm

http://answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltosamshamoun4.htm

http://answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltosamshamoun11.htm

http://answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltosamshamoun11_1_1_b.htm

http://answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltosamshamoun24.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/john1_1.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/godtitle.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/onetexts.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/yhwh-lord.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_paradise.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_had_no_will.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/10_reasons_jesus_not_god.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_miracles.htm

 

 

 

 

 

Rebuttals, and exposing the lies of the Answering Islam team section.

Rebuttals to Sam Shamoun's Articles section.

Sami Zaatari's Rebuttals section.


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